Title: O9A Rising: The Spread of Britain’s Occultist Militant Group
Date: Apr 19, 2021

JAKE: This is Popular Front a podcast focused on the very niche and kind of geeky details of Modern Warfare. With me, Jake Hanrahan.

Today we're speaking to Daniel Desimone. He's a journalist covering the far right in the UK, and specifically today he's going to be speaking to us about the order of nine angles. Which is a militant ocultist neo-Nazi group that started here in the UK, was very small and is now spreading all over the world into the facets of the far right.

Daniel is, in my opinion, probably the best journalist in the UK covering the far right. He understands it better than most, so he's going to tell us why the 09A is actually a threat, and how this weird occult group has managed to infiltrate all of these neo-Nazi groups across the world.

I think the best way to start is probably just maybe you can give us an overview of what actually is O9A a, the order of nine angles? What is it?

DANIEL: So, order of nine angles is an occult order and one of the issues when discussing the group is actually finding independently independent kind of information about it, thinking about its history, 'cause most of what is written about it and is said about it and its origins and. How long it's been around and what it's been doing, a lot of that comes from its own texts and its own writings. So, it's in that sense it's unreliable because it's trying to seeking to build its own myth but broadly speaking it appears to have been founded in the 1970s in the UK. And it kind of references places like Shropshire as being. It's kind of home. It's where it's original geographical. And over that, over the subsequent decades. Uhm, it's. It's actually generated quite a large body of of literature. Books, journals, periodicals, now many of which are posted online. So, although it's a like in a cult group and you know, cult meeting kind of hidden knowledge and therefore something that isn't sort of accessible unless you remember actually a lot of them, what it says about itself and what it says about how you advance within it is sort of is out there. But what is sort of certainly hidden is actually how it then works in practice and how people are involved with it behave what they do, and most of that is, is quite hidden, and particularly as it really is. It is encouraging, you know, often illegal activity because, you know, it's saying people need to engage in acts of evil. That's what it's saying. It's saying that proper, proper Satanism involves practical action, practical undermining of. Uhm, what most? What kind of judeo-christian values? And obviously some of that is is illegal. So, it is essentially advocating criminality, it's advocating people. The Members should infiltrate existing. Organizations political groups in order to turn those groups towards towards the ends of order of nine angles.

JAKE: Right. And let's talk about David Meyer, the guy that allegedly founded it. David Meyer, AKA Anton Long. Like, this is a very interesting guy. He was a Nazi. He was the hardest. Now is this occultist like? It's about him.

DANIEL: Well, David might. Yeah, as you say he it, it isn't allegedly 'cause he. He denies being Anton Long. He denies being involved in order of nine angles, although he has been openly involved in in the past in neo-Nazi groups for many years. In the announced groups and then he spent the period as a radical Islamist and even wrote a text justifying suicide. Bombing now he's he's, you know he's he's getting on now 'cause he. I think he was born around around 1950. Now he rejects, he says he rejects all extremism and continues to write and publish online and sort of. Admits being an extremist but and involved with the the extreme right wing is isn't this groups but then is isn't this faucet? But then it still denies being involved in order of nine angles. But there's so there's been a bit of work done on him and his alleged links to all of nine angles by some academics, by some some journalists and and. Broadly speaking, that what that says is that he more or less founded all of nine angles as we know it in in the 1970s. And then was the main. Writer generator of its literature, certainly in the 80s and into the early 90s. And then there is some suggestion he then pulled away a bit. But obviously some people say he's never really, he's never really left. But if you look at it, a lot of. Order of nine angles, ideas and books art were promoting some of the similar ideas that that he was promoting. Come around, which broadly speaking has been termed sort of Nazi, satanist and so and there was a lot of. Extreme right wing and Nazi. References in its texts that there has been a consistent references to Nazism coming up really even up until now if you see some. Of ordering on angles and things that are published online. There's blogs and other things by people who claim their members. There's still references to National Socialism and other things. Even even now, even as even as they all reject the label, there will still be references to it.

JAKE: Yeah, that's the thing they get very nitpicky on. Like, no, we don't. You know, this isn't the label of this is hilarious that they would call us this, but if you actually read it, it's like, well, that's exactly what you're advocating. Do you know what I mean? They want to cull people. They're clearly, it's not even really hidden very well the way they kind of constantly refer to, you know, judeo, Christianity culture, they want to destroy all of that. You know what I mean? It’s quite obvious. I think.

DANIEL: I mean there are, there have been some explicit references to to the Nazis within there within their books and periodicals over the years which have kind of lionized the Nazi era. You know, they're there. That their kind of theology is the wrong word. But if you like their system of belief is that there’s different ages, different eons which have existed throughout history, different historical ages and that we’re living in a particular age now and the Nazi era was almost like an attempt to drag civilization towards the kind of civilization that they want to move towards because they want to move to a new civilization, a new type of person, and they would say that western civilization is decaying, has been made soft by its Judeo-Christian heritage and they’re ultimately extremely anti-Christianity, anti-Judaism, they’re setting themselves against that very, very strongly, just as a lot of very aggressive satanic or occult groups do, that’s the thing they’re opposing. And Hitler and that era it’s seen as an attempt to combat that and it’s almost like a satanic entry into the world and so it’s lionized.

Why I know a bit about it is because when I’ve been covering terrorism cases in the UK involving people on the extreme right wing, involving neo-Nazis, order of nine angles is increasingly coming up as a reference and an influence on these people to the extent that within the last just over a year, we’ve had four teenagers in the UK jailed for terrorism offences where order of nine angles has come up a lot in the background to those cases.

In one case which was a then sixteen-year-old from Durham who was convicted of several offenses including preparing a terrorist attack, it was essentially prosecuted that he was a neo-Nazi, he was inspired by groups like atom warfare division, but also that he basically became an occult neo-Nazi.

The way it was put in court was that he was heavily influenced by the order of nine angles and he was buying their books, writing about them in his journal and this was something that had completely taken hold of him and it’s in other cases as well.

So, it's not just something that it's sort of like a bit weird thing you're finding the Internet that you and I might be interested. It's actually coming up, you know, in court cases and this. Is being prosecuted now.

JAKE: Yeah, that's that's the the most important part. Like so for me I started researching order of nine angles probably five years ago. Four years ago, maybe because I was just fascinated, always have been in the occult, like where they called it like left hand path or cultism, like what is essentially like how the O9A they are. They actually believe in demons. They actually believe in this. It's not like edgy atheism. It’s they believe this. Real right? So O9A a kept coming up and back then there was kind of a joke amongst the satanic or occult circles that called them the order of no members. And certainly it was very hard to find people that were openly a member and then now like you, like you said, it's popping up in terrorism cases, like how do you think in the last couple of years it's managed to? Really infiltrate the far right. I mean, it started with Atomwaffen like you said, and now it seems to be growing.

DANIEL: Yeah, I mean, I think it's always. Been there in the background to various neo-Nazi groups, particularly in the UK. And I mean, if you're talking about David Meyer and he, he created, he's been involved in various groups in the UK over the years, British Movement or combat 18. He had his own group, the National Socialist Movement. One of the members of which was of David Copeland, who who carried out the bricks and nail bombings just over 20 years ago now. So, it’s sort. Of been there and when it was the first, if you like, Exposee of David Meyer, which said he was linked to order of nine angles and that he was Anton Long with by Searchlight magazine. Again. It was over 20 years ago now, I think in 1998 or something like that. And that was so it's sort of been there for a long time, but I think with the Internet. Certain Post 2000, a lot of their material has been posted online and then where you've just got now certain platforms, I think we don't need to name them, but certain online platform with messaging platforms where people coalesce this stuff. Is just pushed by certain people. These ideas and some of the imagery is pushed by certain people, and because often is the most extreme. It's sort of people end up veering towards it because if you like, the logic of of a lot of these guys is to kind of go towards the most extreme, the kind of the edgiest expression of what they believe. And often this this is the most extreme. This is the edges, so it ends up being quite prominent. And I think so you get people who may not really be that involved in it, who still reference it, who kind of use it to kind of in when they're trying to promote their identity. So, it's I think it can. Sort of be a bit misleading. About how many people are. Really involved because it sort of looks like this, like thousands of people. It's probably actually not that many people and actually some of the people who are really into it probably on on these platforms become so it's slightly miss. I don't think we have a real idea about how many people are really involved, but I just I think that they certainly people involved in the group according to their own boasts online, have sort of sought to. Move to a state where they are promoting the group on on the Internet and where this kind of material is available and that that's sort of unsurprising with it's just dumb. That is the way in which people communicate now and that is where people find things. So, it's inevitable really. They would they would seek to make it available there because previously in the 80s. In the 90s, you know, they published physical copies of their, their journal, which then people could get and probably at our, you know, you're talking very, very small print runs of this, of this journal. And now see this stuff's available. In either and people will. Just promote it in that way.

JAKE: Yeah, before we go into how prominent they are within these new militant groups, specifically national action in the UK, maybe we can talk about hostia one of their, I don't know what you want to call it, like one of their manifesto slash Bible type books. I don't even know, but I I think if we maybe you can explain what host here is because to understand that. Is to kind of understand what they believe in and want.

DANIEL: Yeah, I mean, I'm probably not funny. I can't remember. I've read quite a lot, but I'm never quite. Which is in which book?

JAKE: Yeah, they got a few right. Yeah, they've got a few. There's quite a few. But there's a lot of editions of various journals where the the ideas and beliefs have kind of come out. I mean, essentially the, I mean. If you're looking for the sort of bit of about the belief system, so they they are a supernatural. Or, you know, they have a supernatural belief system. It is it is different. From some of the more recognizable kind of feel like Satanist groups like the Church of Satan, which as you said before, is almost like edgy atheism. It's about self gratification. It's about. They would see it as rationalism. It's about kind of self advancement and self celebration of selfishness. What they what order of nine angles would say is that they they're not those people aren't real real satanist, that they're real stations about you. Know practical acts. It's about real evil, and it it isn't about just showing off and having some, you know, big party where everyone is dressed in silly clothes. It’s about actually. Getting your hands dirty and they would then there's sort of various. Kind of levels. There's a hierarchy, if you like, within within the organization that people are meant to kind of advance through. It's like a sevenfold ways and sort of seven levels and people would sort of move through them and actually by. Their own account. Very, very few people reach the kind of the top level as like. And then more people you know. So, people would be encouraged to first of all study and read the texts and you know, this can be something that people do on their own. You know there isn't. Necessarily a formal? Instruction or process going or where someone is telling someone else, then people you know. Basically a certain point. In in it, people are encouraged to actually create their own. Nexium you know what they call like a their own order, their own little group. And people are basing, being encouraged to come. Influence others, manipulate others and sort of prove themselves in doing that. So, that's why you often get these different kind of groups, affiliated sort of orders and nexium's cropping up that some of them are a bit visible 'cause they have like an online presence and you see them around the world, some of them. In the UK, someone there in the US, and this is almost really an inevitable part of it because they're actually encouraging people to create their own groups as part of their program. Russian people are also encouraged to. What they call engage in insight roles so people are encouraged to infiltrate. It's often political organizations, religious organizations, to try and then manipulate those groups towards kind of the ends of the order. So, you've seen people becoming involved in political, like neo-Nazi groups. There's some evidence that certainly people in the UK have moderated. Non mainstream Christian churches which they then boasted about doing to people their close to. And really the kind of the idea. Underlying all this is that people are they're trying to kind of. Act as a gateway into this realm, like the what we would see as the world for kind of evil forces for kind of. To turn history towards where they want it to go to, that's sort of what they're doing. They're trying to. They tronik, disrupt and undermine what they see as a. A deeply flawed. Civilization, that's what they want to do. And obviously they would then claim credit, probably in their own heads for things that go wrong. But obviously, I think you and I can probably just understand that, you know these people. Really only this information that they like to imagine. I think that the threat that they they pose is that they influence often quite impressionable people who then engage in. Potentially engaging in violent activity or or sexual violence. I mean there is. I mean, I suppose one of the things is that if people are encouraged to engage in criminality or acts of. Harm to undermine society that could be totally random. You know, there may be crimes that have. Been committed by people who are. Involved with this? Group that will never really be obviously linked to this. Group or they'll. On the face it be no motive. Because it was at the most. Sensational end this. Group some of their texts encourage people to engage in human sacrifice and then you know whether or not that actually happens at. All this is the sort of thing that it's saying. In in the text.

JAKE: They even use the German word right. They call them offers like offerings or something.

DANIEL: Yeah, they do. and and, you know. There's they've got there. There's text which set out rituals. You know this book called The Black Book of Satan, which sets out rituals. Often like like black mass, which is an inversion of the Christian mass. And these sort of rituals are often, you know, very kind of clearly sexually charged, which is the same as the black mass it's meant to be. The pushing against kind of the kind of the Christian rituals. And within that, yes, there are descriptions of human sacrifice and so on, whether or not that's. Real or not, that's. What they say in the text, it's pretty on. It's pretty unpleasant and I think when when people see. All this and. They hear all this, I think obviously the first probably reaction. A lot of people think, oh, this is all just ridiculous and it's just a lot of nonsense and that we shouldn't take it seriously. But I think that unfortunately, once it's starting to seep into terrorism cases and it's clearly influencing. Some some quite dangerous people then I think it. Should be a concern. I don't think we should overstate. They're important, you know that they are still a small group. There are a few of these people who are quite open in some ways online. They publish blogs. They publish sometimes pictures about what they're up to. They don't reveal. Who they are, but they're kind of promoting themselves. and yeah, I mean, I just think it I wouldn't have really. Taking it that seriously, you know probably 3 or 4. Years ago, but. I've sort of tended to take it more seriously since then.

JAKE: I I definitely agree. It's like, on the face of it, it's like, mate, like this is mad. Like there's no way, you know, like the satanic panic in the 80s or the 70s, whatever it were, like 90% of that was was just nonsense. But when you look at this now, you know one of the compulsive compulsory reading of the Atomwaffen Division. You know, militant US neo-Nazi. Group One of the books that you had to read to be a part of them was an O9A A affiliate. Book and they have killed up to five people, maybe more. Now we don't know if one of those neo-Nazi terror attacks had the feeling of this kid is thinking like, yeah, I'm this is an opt for as well of 098. I mean, we just don't know and you you know what I mean. It it could go, it could go like that without anybody quite like, look the the police. Don't really understand it. So, you're saying we're starting to see it in terror cases now, but the onone stuff has been within atom often, you know, world for years?

DANIEL: Yeah, I think with when it's appearing in terrorism facing the UK, I think it is, uh, it's clearly like a very novel thing to be appearing. And I mean if you like extreme right wing. Terrorism and you know has actually only been a major concern for like police over and certainly in my 5 in the UK in the last four years really since the murder of Jo Cox and then the the banning of national actions a terrorist group. And since then there's been a whole. Load of terrorism cases, not just to do with national. And it's only more recently that this order of nine angles stuff has appeared, and some of that was linked to Solemn Creed division, which was. Essentially European version of Atomwaffen Division, which has now also been recently banned as a terrorist organization and within that group there was a lot of referencing of order of nine angles going on and a lot of propaganda was being produced. Very, very nasty stuff. Encouraging rape of young. Yeah, of babies. Murder of winning sexual violence, not, you know, quite different from, if you like, ordinary extreme right wing propaganda, really encouraging anything, undermining society, anything that kind of course and society. That's what they're encouraging. And within three people who were connected to that group. Have been had been jailed for terrorism offences, all of them teenagers. All of them have Polish heritage actually. And in this other boy that Darren boy was. Within those circles online. But wasn't a member of Sonic.

JAKE: Redivision right, yeah, let's definitely get into that before we do. I wanna I've just realized I got. I got host here here. I was looking through it for research so so for people to understand. And 1st I want to say like the thing with order of nine angles is you like if you anyone listening, if you look at how much? Writing there is that they have done themselves like, it's insane. There is like stacks and stacks and stacks of writing that they've all done themselves. This is not like. A little little miniature effort by some online guy. This is like a serious movement. They have like tapes where they're releasing various chants. They've got instructions on rituals. It's all bizarre, but so, So what they have is what they call the sinister way, I guess. Would you say Daniel is like their ideology? Right, right, yeah.

DANIEL: Tynisa tradition.

JAKE: And it it says here, so the essence. The genuine Satanism can be simply stated, it is a way to. Inner development, the goal of which is a new individual. This way involves 3 essential stages, and these exemplify the spirit of that way and the individuals who follow it. Now, if we look at this, all this madness, like the neophite things you have to do, you have to study esoteric tradition. You have to read the Black Book nails. As of Fenrir, which is there weird like magazine. But then there's this bit where it says like this what interests me. You were just on about where it says about the roles and it's here. So, during some of these roles, the novice should try and keep their satanic views and beliefs secret and become in fact a shapechanger. Chameleon. And then the roles it says. Like if you want to get into O9A a these are things you have to do. So, it says, either by foot or by bicycle or boy, or by accepting lifts, you must travel alone around the world, taking between six months or one year or more. There's other things. It has become a professional burglar targeting only victims who have revealed revealed themselves to be. Steal their jewellery. All of that, become a police officer. It even says like to experience the sharp end of higher authority. All roles must last six months, blah blah. So, my point is, this is not like some easy thing where you just right away or you e-mail someone and you go, hey, I'm onone now. Like, they genuinely see it as like a lifetime. Thing right? Like constantly moving on to the next stage to become an adept or an initiator or, you know, all of their weird, little sevenfold, sinister way guidelines.

DANIEL: Yeah, it's good, I mean. It's, you know, it's, it's. Absolutely large volume of writing, and that is a complete cult. Yemen is encouraging a complete worldview that would completely dominate your life. It isn't just saying, well, you know, you come along on on the Sunday morning and then the rest the week. Don't worry about it. It is basically encouraging people to be completely committed to this. In every single thing they do. And obviously not many people. Some people will reference this stuff online and they they'll because it's edgy, but they won't really be doing. Other people actually really do actually need this stuff. And there's been certainly people in the UK who, you know, we're aware of that, that are properly committed to this and do infiltrate organizations, filtrate churches. And actually, that is what they're doing. They are not just in these groups because they're really interested. They're in it. Because they're following following these instructions, there's other stuff about people should go off and spend weeks in the wild living on their own. Well, I don't in the end, because this is a an occult group, we're not really sure how many people really follow through and do this stuff, but that is what it that is what is encouraging. That's what it's saying.

JAKE: Out, yeah. And it's very similar to esoteric Hitlerism in that it's seen as like this political or whatever. It's a religion. And I want to talk about how it first got into national action, specifically Ryan Fleming. Now, this is very strange, so most people won't know, but Ryan Fleming was a member of National Action, the banned neo-Nazi terror group here in the UK. I spoke to Ryan Fleming about six years ago because I was a bum. Investigating the order of nine angles now, I didn't know he was in national action. I don't think he was then. And I managed to e-mail him and was like, hey, I've I I managed to find out who he really was just through various like. Kind of open source research, 'cause. I found his blog where he was posting up pictures of very weird rituals he was doing in the forest in Yorkshire, where he was like cutting his hand, bleeding all over some weird Talisman, you know? And he allegedly had all these other groups. He'd wrote this whole crazy book about being a vampire. Or, like, just madness. So, I got in contact with this guy, Ryan Fleming and he was like, yeah, come up north like we'll meet and I'll, I'll give you an interview sort of thing. And it never happened. In the end, I kind of went off the idea. Next thing I see this guy is a member of national action, like a year or so. And he eventually got arrested for basically being a paedo, right? Like, I mean, tell us, Daniel, like, how did all this eventually? You know, we have Umm have both been doing this research together. We've seen it pop up in even national action. Should we?

DANIEL: Right. No, Ryan Fleming was into this stuff before he was involved in their selection. He was, yeah. I don't exactly know when he first got into it, but certainly he was what he's written books under a pseudonym and he's quite open about this story. So, it's not it's not even allegedly he he's kind of been fairly open online at that, but he's I think he he was he was in prison more recently, but he. He published books that were published by a publishing house to deal with the Temple of Blood, which is a group in the US. Clearly linked and all of nine angles. You know, maybe a Nexium or order online angles that is run by a couple who live in South. Carolina. And they have one of them, the man Kelly Sutter has been involved in in neo-Nazi groups in the US. This or white supremacist groups.

JAKE: Yeah, and he's a member of Atomwaffen as well now.

DANIEL: Yeah, there's been some some stuff about recently in the press and certainly pictures of him with Atomwaffen members as well and. They've referenced Temple of Blood as well. Quite a lot of people do without a mother, and Ryan Fleming published books under their publishing house, and these are sort of vampiric books. They kind of encourage you to be a vampire. That sounds ridiculous, but it but it is actually quite. Nasty stuff towards you and Ryan Fleming. A kind of a. Group Annexion in his own in Yorkshire. I don't know how many. People read it, but certainly there was. There is some evidence there were some. Other people involved. and then you can see this from the Iron March leak last year. You see where he first makes contact with people in national action. Guessing he joins Iron March and then he approaches people involved in national action on. And then arranges to meet, meet them, meets them in, I think in Yorkshire, and then becomes quite heavily involved in the group to the point that he's believed to have become the regional organize at 4 for the northeast of England. At a certain point he certainly spoke at one of their rallies. I think in Newcastle he appeared publicly at at some of their demonstrations. This is before they were banned. I should say this is in. They were banned in December 2016 as before then. And Fleming, actually, I'm not sure how many people knew this in national actually. Had he had already been convicted of sexual sense against a young boy like a an an underage boy. He had really attacked this boy. and it was. Really, really vicious. And then later, this is when he's becoming involved. So, when he's involved in neo-Nazi groups, he's he's then charged with. Sexual offences against a young girl who who was underage and he'd groomed this girl online and then you know that they used sexually abused her and when this became known, I think some people in national action were. A bit bothered by attacks. It didn't look very good, but other people were perfectly relaxed about it because, you know they are. There's a lot. Of very sick people. Involved in national action and people who. Frankly, pretty relaxed about about. That kind of behavior and he was in jailed for for three years for for that for that for those offenses and I think he was on license at the time he was in charged. With using the girl, and then he did come out of prison on license at the halfway point. But then, and he was posting why online immediately posting again about all of nine angles and other such things. And then he was then. For whatever reason, he was returned to prison because he must have breached his license condition.

JAKE: Yeah, this is a guy that was deeply involved. Like, it seems to be like, as far as I'm aware, it seems like he's a lifelong guy that believes in it and he actually did what they said, right? He infiltrated an extremist group. Now I'm sure he has far right leanings anyway, because he's involved with order of nine angles, but he actually did one of their insight roles effectively.

DANIEL: Yeah, I mean I I sort of an insight role would be consistent with what what he did with national action. I mean I think he may have had other insight roles in other organizations, but. I think one of the 'cause. Order of nine angles is. You know, there is this long history of National socialism, Nazism being promoted by order of nine angles. When someone who's within that within order of nine angles then joins neo-Nazi group. It's not. Entirely clear that that is really. An insight role because you know, it's not like it's exactly going against their nature or against what they they believe in. I mean, there there were some other people in at least one other person. National action was also quite quite openly referencing order of nine angles and then with the later iterations. Post national action being banned, so system resistance network, which is now also banned as a terrorist as an alias of national action. So, that sort of split in 2018, partly because some people were very into. Satanism and Atomwaffen Division and this kind of side of it and other people weren't. So, the people that were went off and created some incread division and others stayed behind with system resistance network. And now obviously both of those groups are also banned as as terrorist groups and for those like outside. The UK I mean banning. Organizations as terrorist groups isn't like a, you know, an everyday thing. It's actually quite an unusual thing when national action was banned here. In December 2016, it was the first neo-Nazi organization added to that, to that long list of proscribed terrorist organizations, which includes, you know. Groups that we all know about, like Al Qaeda, ISIS, hiray also lots of perhaps more obscure groups around the world. But it was, yeah, it. Was the first new NRT group on that list and the. First band Extreme Right Wing Group since the war. Then subsequently you know you've had aliases of National Action Band and then so link redivision was like any band. Just over a month ago. All its own like, not just as an alias of national action, but on. Its own and I think a lot of people would think, well, why is that even banned? Because it's been so heavily disrupted. You know, it's most of its members are either in prison or, you know, or being prosecuted. It it it really amounts to the fact that that group and its propaganda has been found to be concerned in terrorism, it's propaganda. Was found to be terrorist propaganda. And it was almost like a an inevitable thing that was then considered should this group be banned as a terrorist group and it it just and it it met that, met that standard, so it was banned.

JAKE: Yeah, and they they were like posting propaganda where they were basically advocating that Prince Harry be murdered and stuff like that. And I think that was very touchy for British, you know? I mean that the establishment especially.

DANIEL: Yeah, I think that was the one everyone remembers, and there was quite a lot of other propaganda which was. Some of which wasn't really broadcast or or quoted from Atlantic 'cause it was. It was almost too much. But it was stuff where where babies and others, you know, was encouraging the rape and murder of young babies. It was it really sort of nasty.

JAKE: Well, let's talk about that stuff, because, like, there's a similar like, one of the unifying threads with all these ******** groups is the abuse of minors, which is ******* dark, but it needs to be spoken about. So, Ryan Fleming was abusing underage. I mean, he wasn't touching toddlers, whatever, but we're talking like ******* What 14 year old girl? Like he forced himself on a boy. Boy, like it's just disgusting. So, he was doing all that kind of paedo stuff, which within our inner circles there is some arguments between them, like are we OK with paedophilia now? Some of them are like, no, we're not. And then others are like, yeah, of course that's fine because it's a degradation of, you know, judeo-christian society. And we also saw it with Son and Krieg, right?

DANIEL: Yeah, it's only clear. That was pretty open. There wasn't even really a debate about it. They're all fine with that. There was no no arguments about whether there should be an age of consent or anything like that within national action. There were some discussions around. You know, it's the age of consent or OK, some people will say now it doesn't matter. You know, there's this. It doesn't matter at all. Other people would would realize, would think, well, that doesn't look very good for us, so they'd be against it. Within solid Green division, it was a complete, completely amoral organization, and it was about. Promoting anything that some. Coarsening or undermining of society. So, sexual abuse of minors, murder of babies was always all encouraged. And what they'll sort of say, oh, it's all a joke, it's just us being edgy, but it but it isn't, you know, if you go around writing about that, encouraging that sort of behavior, you know? It's just not OK, is it? I mean you know you're basically encouraging the the rate of children. I mean that it's not OK on any level but I I think when we order of nine angles it is explicitly anti ethics you know it's not it isn't about. You know, when some other Satanist groups not not like ordinal angles, would perhaps be more associated with certain types of politics, or on the left or, you know. Certain green groups or other things where they'd be promoting a certain ethical, certain ethical ideas at some level. All of the line angles isn't about promoting any ethical ideas on any level. It's about undermining ethics at all levels. It's about. So, the idea that they're going to come in at certain point and say, yeah, well, we should respect the age of consent. I just it's not really consistent with their, with their worldview and you know, actually you kind of have to look at what people who are promoting the group are doing and this is, this is coming up a lot. You know this. This theme of sexual abuse of minors. It it comes up. A lot in relation to people who either are clearly involved with the group or are referencing the group and are influenced by the group and actually the, the, the. The teenager from Durham who was convicted of. Preparing terrorist attack and it was heavily influenced by order of nine angles at an earlier stage in in the case, you know one of the one of the particulars of his preparing to carry out an attack so that you know when they charge that offense then sort of say what the person has done in order to prepare. For an attack. And in this case, you know it was some. Tried to obtain a certain chemical sort of read certain text that set out how to carry out the attack and one of them at an early stage, and this was sort of not allowed into the trial, but it wasn't actually engaged in sexual touching of a minor as a desensitisation. So, essentially it, yeah. So, essentially the they were going to get and the judge ultimately ruled that this was. Not not relevant to the charge. So, it was it was not proceeded without trial, but essentially the allegation was that you know, someone is trying to desensitize themselves to to kind of what they're doing and by doing and they're what they're planning to do and as part of that is engaging in. Sexual abuse and that that was a theme in that case. Is that so? This boy was actively seeking to kind of alter himself in line with the text that he was reading and he was accessing, you know, he was trying to do, as he put it, dehumanize him. Self and that, and that is quite troubling 'cause. It's someone who is really taking quite literally what groups like all of nine angles order and my angles are saying, which is that this sort of system of morals and beliefs that you know that society kind of encourages. I know that's a broad statement, but that that that this is wrong. This is. Junior Christian managing their term soul and this, this needs to be kind of stripped out. You need to kind of get away from this and you need to kind of almost actively overcome it. You know, this is sort of this idea of self overcoming, which is a big part of borderline. Angles and self overcoming is also about overcoming to kind of. Norms that you've been probably brought up to believe it, or certainly that society and its and its laws and its institutions encourage you to bleed.

JAKE: Yeah, I think what you just said about how he was like trying to alter himself, that is exactly the nail on the head in terms of what they want their recruits to do. Because from what I've understood from the writings, it's saying, you know, to put it in I guess more understandable terms, it's basically saying do awful. Tough to then become OK with it. To then feel like you're above everyone because normal people you like the idea of like, yeah, cut someone's head off. Like, Oh my God, that's horrific. But then it's like, if you became OK with that, then you're ascending. Do you know what I mean? It's like you're above the norms you're, you're above. You're a better person. You're more powerful because you're not bothered by stuff like that. Do you get what I mean?

DANIEL: Yeah, no, absolutely. And in this case, he was seeking to desensitize himself 'cause. To carry out a terrorist attack. But, you know, to carry carry out acts of violence.

JAKE: And what was his plan? Do you know what the the details of the attack were?

DANIEL: Quote When they charge that offense, like preparing after terrorism, it can cover people who are sort of a very advanced stage of attack planning. You know with a clear target almost you know at the at the point of carrying out or you know at the location where they had to go out to a much earlier stage of of planning and. Relatively speaking, this this case was at an earlier stage, so although he'd written out. A list of possible targets in Durham where where he came from and he'd written like a what he called a guerrilla warfare manual where he listed possible targets and there wasn't a kind of a clear identified target that he he was kind of accused of planning to attack and there wasn't. And also they weren't. There was a clear decided or method of how we carry out this act. He downloaded a lot of manuals, you know, gun manuals, bomb making manuals was trying to obtain a chemical that has previously been used in in terrorist bombings. So, basically you know the the. Case was that he was. At the early stages of preparing some kind of attack, but you know that's sort of the when people are charged with being either developed stage in early stage the. Fact that people. Are at different stages then reflected in the sentence or so. He got, he got a lesser sentence and someone would get, you know, was kind of at the gates. Of, you know, Downing Street with the bomb, so to speak.

JAKE: And how old is it?

DANIEL: Well, he was 16 when he was convicted and then 17 on sentence. But he was actually on conviction. He was the youngest person. He has ever been convicted of planning a terrorist attack, you know, on UK soil. So, you know, isn't in that sense very distant. We've had other teenagers convicted of of planning attacks, but they've they've been older. There was a uh a younger boy was convicted a few and this and this committed. Few years ago of like inciting an attack overseas and he was younger. But that wasn't like a his own terrorist plot on UK soil, so this was sort of the youngest person.

JAKE: Right. So, this slide 16, he's heavily linked with their own RNA, or at least he's reading their literature. He's planning an attack. Like, to me it sounds a lot like Sonnen Krieg and I know we mentioned it earlier, but I forgot to mention, like when we were, you know, I've seen it. We were looking through various stuff like research into their their servers and whatever. Now they were. I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I remember they were basically encouraging young girls to cut themselves with a razor and then take photos of themselves self harming. And then they were sending it to the members of Sodom Creek, and they were all sharing it like, ha ha, ha. Look what we got these young women to do. And some of them were certainly.

DANIEL: Yeah they were doing that and they were they were absolutely celebrating that and flooring in doing that and you know that what those people involved in sonicly would, you know, the ones that convicted were doing, you know, it's it's, you know they would try and be as cruel as possible. You know that's what they that's. What they were reveling in, you know, there's no nothing they said or did at any stage. No, none of them would say, well, hang on, that's going a. Bit far you? Know, everything they did was celebrated and you know. When they would. You know, not just do stuff getting other people to do stuff, but when they produce, you know, a new bit of propaganda or new document which is encouraging rape of babies or whatever. No one would say, well, hang on, do you think that's that's going a bit far? It was always celebrated and everyone can congratulate everyone. It's and that. You know, it's. It's really dangerous 'cause when you get groups like. It doesn't have to be a big group. When people are encouraging one another to like that, it’s really dangerous. And not just in a terrorist, not in it is a terrorist sense. But you know you, you can create, you have seen increasingly people who are. Involved or sort of keen on sort of sexual offending or sexual violence, sexual offending its children being involved in these groups. And because it's not, it's not taboo within these certain circles, it's not hidden and it's kind of, if anything they then. So, they feel quite justified in doing and. I think there is you. Know there is a thought about. Well, it's like a chicken and egg. Is it that these some of these groups are attracting people already with these tendencies or these kind of deviancies? Or is it actually generating it within them? And I don't know the answer to that, but it may. Be that some people. Already are into this behavior and then kind of drawn to some of these groups and ideas because it kind of almost gives them license.

JAKE: Yeah, definitely it’s like bizarre how many of these P. People congregate together. It's like, sometimes I think people have these feelings or whatever, and then they find a group just to tell them, oh, it's OK, almost, but in the worst way possible. Not like it's OK you can get help, like it's OK, this is good. We should revel in this. I'm certainly looking at the the child abuse if you look at so Sudden Creek division was. Essentially, the UK or European wing of the Atomwaffen Division, the militant neo-Nazi group now Atomwaffen Division, didn't start. But as 098 as such, there wasn't really anything to do with that. But then when rape John Cameron Denton is his real name, the, the now, you know, kind of leader of Atomwaffen. He's been arrested. When he took over he brought in all the O9A a stuff and now we found out that, I mean we knew this, but we've also the police now are charging him. We'd share. Bing abuses sexual abuse images of children, so again, another one linked to the kind of disgusting **** stuff. But what what I wanna say is so I want to talk about a temple of blood. I know you touched on it earlier, but like Denton was heavily linked with them lot and certainly Temple of blood. I I knew about them being used before at morphine even existed. And their Beast barracks website and all of that, like, they've been heavily involved in all of this. You know, maybe you can go into a little bit about who they are and what they're about.

DANIEL: So yeah, they've been around for for for a few years and they're not as visible online at the moment, partly because I think some certain platforms removed there. Their pages, like Facebook, removed their pages last year and they the couple. Some who are kind of feel like the visible face of that of that great Karen Sutton and Jillian Hoy from for the United States, from from South Carolina. And if this has been documented by by other journalists that they, I think including the Germans called Nate Thayer, they were. Previously involved in other sort of extreme right wing groups. Then we're promoting kind of North Korea, then Julian Hollywood certainly. Kind of apparently on the sides of it involved, it's kind of, you know, Hari Krishna and sort of promoting some sort of form of that that she was kind of openly promoting on online. And then more recently they developed this group Temple of Blood, which appears to be. Uh, nixion of order of nine angles. Kind of a group based on all of nine angles, and that generated quite a lot of literature. Kind of a journal. 4 novels including a novel called Iron Gates which is became a bit of a catch phrase for Atmore from division. Others when they say Iron Gate now and I I in gate is a like a few, like a fantasy is probably the wrong word, but it sets out a post collapse society where there's all sorts of. Rapes and murders happening.

JAKE: Now a cult militia is basically ruled.

DANIEL: Yeah, and and, you know, if you. Read that and. It's not very well written, frankly, but it if you read that and you wouldn't think, well, you wouldn't really want that, but they would say we want that, you know, in Gates now.

JAKE: To give people an idea, it starts with the baby being sacrificed with a needle, if I remember rightly.

DANIEL: Yeah, start. I mean it. And then there's a sequel to it as well, and the the author isn't that. There is an actual name for the person who's written it, so I'm not it's not entirely clear who actually wrote. It and I wouldn't. Encourage people to buy this stuff. It’s it's. It's badly written. It's horrible. But then this it sort of ended up being referenced quite a lot. By people in on the extreme right wing and then on there on the page of linked to this group they were. In current, you know, sort of glorifying and lionizing serial killers. So, like. No, it's stalker and sort of turning up at locations where serial killers had murdered women turning up. The location in California where that serial killer? The one often is talked about. There was a film about him by the guy that. Made Fight Club.

JAKE: Oh. Zodiac.

DANIEL: Exactly, exactly. So, yeah, so that turning off at the location of one of his murders. And sort. Of taking pictures dressed in a temple of blood type uniform with the the the low whether they uses 333 logo. So, sort of really lionizing rape and murder. You know, not really. There's almost no political. Agenda there that is just encouraging. You know, rape and murder, that's when it's encouraging.

JAKE: Yeah and the reason like for to to get an idea of how little their political agenda is. Sure they're they're they believe in like fascists and like right wing ship, but they have, there's a video they had where they're all dressed up balaclava, like all this weird occult sheet. They've got a rifle. And then there's, uh, there's like a bust of Hitler and a bust of Stalin. And they're worshiping them both. And that might seem weird, like, Oh well, why would they be? Where the idea is, you know, styling killed like millions of people. Hitler killed millions of people. That's good. That's basically it. Like, that's a good thing. We like that, you know?

DANIEL: I mean, yeah, no. And then they. There was some. Talk where they were saying that Syria, you know the Syrian civil war and what's. Happened to Syria is kind of like. Kind of like a good, you know that's kind of when we look at that that that's great. They're being positive about that. And then also that you know posing with. Pictures of 911 attack behind them. I mean, I must implement these people wearing masks and stuff. It's not always clear who's posing, but really kind of seeking to bring into their aesthetic anything that's terroristic. It's cruel and involved destruction and they just try and bring it all in and mix. It all in. And then because they do that and then they're so extreme, they end up being adopted by people on the on the very extreme right, very, extremely answers are also just looking for the most extreme thing. So, and often there's a lot of blending that goes on, you know, ideologically. A lot of. A lot of people aren't necessarily particularly faithful or consistent in in the kind of the ideology that they they adopt or that they that they kind of seek to kind of associate themselves with. They just kind of almost take the worst bit out of all of them. That's kind of dangerous, isn't it? Because you know, when you've got people who are just large networks online and where a lot of people are accessing this content, it's very hard to know who is then going to actually act on. It is going to be very literally minded about this kind of stuff. Some some people might just read it and not carry out go on doing it. Other people will go out and do something.

JAKE: Yeah, certainly. I mean in in former Atomwaffen members I've spoken to and even current ones, even when they were quite thriving, like some of them would would secretly talk to me and stuff. Love and they like a lot of the the main problems with some of them was that rape and chimare like two of the main leaders of Atomwaffen were basically more order of nine angle types than they were actual Nazis, you know? I mean even rape himself said he preferred Charles Manson to Hitler. He thought man. Like, Hitler was cool, but Manson was the best, you know? I mean, like, these people are very deep in it.

DANIEL: Yeah, no, absolutely. And obviously I think a lot of it's ended up being mixed with, with Sage and James Mason, siege and siege culture and a lot of this. This ends up being mixed together, and because ordered wine angles a lot of, I mean a lot of their idea, ideology and philosophy, a lot of it is really also just picked from elsewhere. So, it will be, you know, this kind of idea of different age years is picked from one author. And another idea will pick from somewhere else, so a lot of it isn't very original, it's picking from various places and then actually. You know they kind of their dating system if you look at it a lot of the dating system in some of my it's works very the ones that might openly wrote. We're kind of. Dating from the birth of that off hit. So, the year of the Fuhrer. You know how we'd say AD&BC&D and actually the order. An angle dating system, then, actually is just from the same date, but they're from the year of fine and find is like celebrations sort of date. It kind of begins the dating system from the year which Adolf Hitler was bought. Which is kind of sort of quite open, quite makes Crimson near and artsy that element quite explicit.

JAKE: Yeah, like. Yeah, like Maya says, like, oh, I'm not Anton wrong. The leader. The guy that started the writing on order of nine angles. But then this new thing, what my ex got going, I think he calls it the luminous way. It's all very, very similar in the way it's written.

DANIEL: Yeah, there was some. I mean this, this has. Been documented by some academics who have said that my was long saying that you know the the same publishing house which was night publishing house was used to publish books under his name and books. Under all of nine Angles imprint, so there's sort of various bits of evidence that go to him being wrong. And he had been mentioned by name in some order of nine angles journals over the years. So, you know, he still denies it, of course, but the kind of the Nazis. I mean there's there's one bit that I've got here where they say. Seeing this is from one of their magazines. So, there's a scene. In esoteric terms, national socialist Germany was a practical expression of satanic spirit led by meaning Hitler, who was able to utilize acres or energy and earth it to achieve political goals. National Socialist Germany. Was a burst of Luciferian light of vest and power and in otherwise Nazarene pacified and boring world. So, again, this they're sort of celebrating the nights here and there seeing it out. Is what they're really aiming to to come to do themselves, but they they're they're really trying to completely tear up society and move it towards this. I mean, ultimately we're aiming for this or a new species, new person, and like almost like, like a dry, active empire. I mean, it's not realistic.

JAKE: Yeah, yeah. What do they call it? The galactic Reich.

DANIEL: Something like that, yeah. I mean, they really it's like a, you know, sort of space travel and kind of adventures in space and kind of moving towards a new, new civilization with like a like a. We've ordered 9 angles at kind of the forefront. I mean, you know, this is some fancy stuff, but this is what they say.

JAKE: And what is it like? Isn't that what the noctule Ian is like the final stage of the O9A? Or or am I wrong?

DANIEL: Well, yeah, not tuning. Is like I think that originally came from by their own account from a particular order. So, there's different groups, different orders that then came in toward of nine angles and became northern line angles as we know it and not tune into one of those become, yeah, not to learn it. Almost like. Kind of the people will call themselves and octavians you get. And some of the people have been convicted of terrorism since we're sort of saying that, you know, they were knocked Elians they were kind of like a different type of person.

JAKE: Jesus, I mean, to be honest, although they're going back to the temple of blood stuff, I've probably I first found Temple of Blood probably 6-7 years ago doing my research on O9A A. And they had that book, Liber 333 and I, I read some of that and that was very, you know, it’s very clearly order of nine angles USA vibe, you know what I mean? And they've taken a lot of it. Now, no, but they were basically doing. Uh, my order of nine angles training, if you like. Now they had videos where they were waterboarding each other. They were their videos where they're self harming themselves. They've got like shrines and they shoot it up with an AK like they have a whole compound. They had a thing called Beast Barracks where they're, you know, abusing each other for hours and hours on end. To kind of become this new person and even, uh, you know, military is kind of like this weird music called gulag, which was just the most hellish thing you've ever heard in your life. And it was almost like they were training to become these kind of O9A militants. Now, it's fascinating to then see how this guy ended up, you know, Sutter and Hoi, these two ended up involved with Atomwaffen Division because I do believe there's part of me that thinks them lot and, you know, and Denton wanted to kind of make Atomwaffen. Their militant wing like an insight roll almost into it. Even though Suttora and and, you know, Denton were already militant white nationalists themselves. I don't know. It's like they found the perfect platform.

DANIEL: Yeah, I mean I think there's there's certainly some suggestion that this moving through different extremist groups by people involved in ultimately involved in Temple of blood is almost evidence of people engaging in various insight roles taking trying to create different. Groups that are almost disruptive influences on society. And that that would be consistent with this kind of moving between various extreme groups, you know, extreme left stream, right religious and now, you know, this kind of weird kind of a cult group, temple of blood, which is very kind of explicit. It is very disruptive in its own way. In the sense of it, it certainly had an influence on some very extreme people, including, you know, in the UK. And I and I sat in courtrooms, you know, at the Old Bailey, where suddenly Libre 333 by Temple of Blood is. Going into and spoken about and there's an expert report on it because it's sort of seen as this sort of. It's kind of final frontier and extremism, you know, which is sort of celebrating murder and blood and this is kind of being cited as mindset evidence. In relation to people who've pleaded guilty to terrorism since extreme right wing terrorism sensors. and it is quite startling, you know, 'cause you're used to hearing about certain Islamist texts or even certain neo-Nazi text as there's kind of long term influences that have been coming up for years in various terrorism cases. But to suddenly have, you know Libre 333 coming up, you know, is quite something.

JAKE: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Like people need to really understand that because you might look at it and be like O9A a like a bunch of flipping bizarre. Satan is demon worshipping people from Yorkshire. Whatever, like no act. Actually, this literature is popping up in terror cases from America to the UK like it's actually a big deal. And what you just said there, like the final frontier extremism, like, that's exactly it. Like I I've really said this to people before, like the Neo Nazism now is not your granddad Nazism, it is not we want to make a white, white land or whatever. It's we want to burn. The Earth and everything. I I just want to take this back to the UK before we end this dumb let's talk about Richard Mult. You know the guy that is painted all these I I mean they're kind of cool. Like some of the pain is actually pretty cool, like order of nine angles artwork and he's involved in music and like, like, who is Richard Multi? I mean I've, I saw him as like Richard Meier, second hand man at one point. I'm unsure like what do? Do you think?

DANIEL: Well, Richard was a uh composer, an artist from from the UK, and it's sort of been involved in various groups. Composing his own music is doing his own artwork that has also been played. With various groups. There was a piece, there was an article published think in 2018 now in the quietest.com that is like a uh, an online magazine which looked into. As they put it in artsy safeness infiltrated kind of the UK Music underground, and then they said they identified Richard Moll as as being involved in order of nine angles over many years, writing under a pseudonym. Essentially being very close to David Myatt. And they, you know, they said that at certain point he kind of openly broken with order of nine angles. Joined the Cath Roman Catholic Church and then we're sort of more openly involved with various groups and various groups were happy to have him playing with them, but then that he kind of secretly still remained involved and this was, this was their sort of investigation and they said that, you know, he'd stayed involved. And then they put this to him, they put this to some of those groups, and then he. He said you. Know he didn't want to be involved in the group anymore. Order of nine angles he kind of rejected. I think he I think he admitted that he'd he'd had an involvement. In the past. But sort of denied having any involvement now, but certainly he. Some of the artwork that you'll see the tarot cards. Which is this quite sort of striking imagery that is often comes up in relation to all of nine angles it's said to have been. By him. And these are, as you say, quite striking images there. Anyone who's looked into this will know it. And there is some Nazi imagery even within those tarot cards once. So, again, the Nazism is again within this artwork.

JAKE: There's something really telling for me as well in one of his paintings where, you know, he, like he said, he's very close to David, Maya. Well, there's a there's a painting that he did where there's one of the O9A A symbols and it's kind of a crystal. Vision of it. And then there's a guy that looks exactly like David Myatt sat right next. To him. Do you know what I mean?

DANIEL: Yeah, I think that is a I. Think that is. A picture of my terms. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I think that is a pretty clearly a drawing of Maya. I'm not sure what it's said to be of, but it's quite clearly of him and he's a very distinctive looking person and he has he dresses in a particular way and he has been, I mean his image, he's published his image himself and he was doorstepped by. Panorama more than 20 years ago in relation to the bricks and nail bombings, because he. The the group he created us not group he created was, and I think I said earlier David Copeland was a member of that group, so Panorama doorstepped him and sort of challenged him on. How he might have influenced Copeland, even indirectly, and he he did stand there and he didn't really answer the questions, but he kind of begins to have said anything. In in. Anything to do with this is between me. And God, that's what he said.

JAKE: Yeah, he's so fascinating. I definitely think anyone that has not heard about him should look him up. Like, like you said, he was dumb. He was the he ran that Nazi group, David Copeland, who, you know, like, said Nailbombs. All these gay bars and then he was a jihadi and now he's like, he's smart. Like if you look at his work, he's like speaks all these weird Greek, forgotten kind of languages and it like very interesting person, very weird. Daniel, is there anything else you? Do you think we should talk about before we kind of bring this to an end?

DANIEL: Not really. Just to say, I think I'd sort of some people, someone say when you start talking about this group and other things, Oh well, you're kind of. All you're doing is highlighting them, and people will then find them and look into them, and I kind of used to think that myself. If you sort of mention them, you're sort of drawing people towards them who might not otherwise be aware of, and certainly they sometimes revel in some of the coverage they get, particularly in the tabloid. Press, which sort of, you know, looks at kind of the sensational stuff about them. But I I think. That the reality is when they are now cropping up so often in in court cases when they're being, you know, mentioned in this sort of almost official way as a, as a, as a menace like we had MPs within the last few weeks, some of them writing, asking for this group for them to be prescribed. As a terrorist group, they're kind of out there in the subject and I think, you know, it's worth. Yes, it's worth just talking about it, but I think it's also just worth realizing these are in the end small groups and you know, although sometimes within these sort of online channels and stuff, it looks like they're like a big influence and they are pretty small really, and I think it's worth emphasizing that.

JAKE: No, definitely. I agree 100%. I mean they're small, but like I always say, it only takes one person to plant a bomb and cause a lot. But I I I I agree with that. I have that problem. You talk about this, do you not? But at the end of the day, I think if you leave this stuff in. The shadows where they? Are then they can kind of get away with more stuff. Like if it's happening then it should be spoken about so that hopefully other people can look into it and maybe stop them. Do you know what I mean?

DANIEL: So, really, yeah, and it hasn't to honestly, it hasn't been the subject of a massive amount of journalistic investigation. It certainly hasn't been, apart from clearly some honorable exceptions, like quiet as others. But the. And it and it clearly hasn't been the subject of, much like law enforcement, like attention, really. It's only more recently because it's been cropping up in in these terrorism cases that people have, you know, they started to have to look at it and then they started to have to get like expert reports on some of the books and other things which just haven't. Really been looked at the source. Lack of institutional familiarity with some of these groups and some of this, some of these ideologies, but I think that is changing. It's clearly now much more of a focus and although they suddenly people involving these groups might kind of revel in that when they see in themselves. In one of the paper. And they may not revel in it when it really kind of. When there's really a lot of attention on them. cause, I don't think it will be that helpful.

JAKE: Yeah, they went reverently when they're in jail.

DANIEL: When you have anyone like you've probably had this, if you do sort of research on this and start to look into it, there's always this stuff that those are all wouldn't look into that it gets a bit nasty very quickly for for journalists and often there's threats made against journalists, but you kind of have to do your job, don't you? You actually have. To just look, it's people encouraging. And kind of violence against others and they're sort of encouragement of of sexual violence and. Other you know. What you're going to do, you're not going to. Look into it. You have to look into this stuff.

JAKE: Julie I mean, what if one of those Fockers targets your sister or someone like that, you know? I mean, you'd be thinking, I wish someone had looked into that. Do you know? I mean, so now I agree 100%, man.

Daniel, where can people find you online if they want to follow your work?

DANIEL: So I'm on on Twitter and I'm Daniel De Simone on Twitter.

JAKE: Thank you very much mate. That was brilliant.

DANIEL: Thanks a lot mate. Cheers.

JAKE: That was Daniel Desimone, speaking about the order of 9 Angels, the far-right ocultist order that started in the UK and is now spreading all across the world. And like he said, yes, it's not a massive group so don't get too worried or anything, but their stuff is turning up in terror cases both in the USA and in the UK now when it comes to militant neo-Nazi, so it's definitely worth keeping your eye on.